thanks for watching. piers morgan is next. >> this is piers morgan live. you are looking live at kiev where shortly before dawn, a memorial to protesters gunned down there last month and there's word that they're trying to construct a so-called off ramp to get vladimir putin out of his crisis amid growing fears a tense situation will spin out of control after this confrontation in crimea. the world is watching two presidents locked in a war of words. who will blink first? >> translator: if i take the decision to use military force, it will be completely legitimate and correspond to the norms, international law.

>> i know president putin seems to have a different set of lawyers making a different set of interpretations, but i don't think that's fooling anybody. >> i'll talk to senator john mccain. he says president obama doesn't understand putin. chris murphy says republicans are playing politics. also, from the miracle on ice to rocky and bull winkle, why do we love to hate russia? is it deserved? oscar pistorius's defense hammers a witness. she cries sayinging it was awful to hear the shots. what we know about the night of the killing. the crisis in ukraine. vladimir putin will do next. joining me now is robert legvald and general mark kimmet and fareed zakaria. fareed, we spoke last night and had a fascinating debate about the state of play. i want to play you a clip. this is president clinton

talking to me at the cgi last september about his own dealings with vladimir putin because it seems to me that trust in putin right now is absolutely key. listen to this. >> mr. putin has got -- he's very smart. >> you know him better than most people. >> yeah, i do. >> what was he like behind closed doors away from sort of the public utterances? >> smart and remarkably -- we had a really good, blunt relationship. >> how blunt? >> brutally blunt. >> did putin ever renege on a personal agreement made to you? >> no, he did not. >> behind closed doors he could be trusted. >> he kept his word in all the deals we made. >> i found that fascinating insight into that relationship and into the character of putin. and i remember bill clinton going on to say that what you had to be weary of with putin was making any public pronouncements as the american

president or any world leader which exposed to him to any sense of ridicule and embarrassment losing faith with his own people. taking it to the current situation, what should we make about the reality of putin and how you should deal with him? >> well, he is i think as bill clinton said a tough guy. i've had a few chances to meet with him in small groups, very small groups, and he's -- what comes across is very intelligent, very tough and a deep sense of russian nationalism. a deep sense of the greatness of russia. if you will, russian exceptionalism. so i think that you're dealing with somebody with whom you cannot make appeals to international laws or norms. these things are not as important. it is brutal understanding of russia's interests and i think that the off ramp that we might find, it lies in what putin said in the press conference. the most important thing he said

in the long rambling press conference was that he does not intend to annex crimea. he was asked the final question was, is crimea going to become part of russia? he said, no. we want to leave it up to the people of crimea to determine their future so it suggests he's thinking of a referendum. the ukrainian may have ideas. the constitution allows for a referendum the whole country and all ukrainians would have to decide whether crimea is either independent or part of russia or autonomous within ukraine and then you see the possibility of some kind of political solution. if putin says and really forsways any notion of annex xags by force then you can have a serious conversation about the political future because it is a complicated situation. it was given to ukraine in 1954 in a kind of weird gift that was made. it is 60% russian. from all accounts, the majority

would rather be in russia or at least not particularly happen we with ukraine. so all those things can be discussed but i think that the key is as you put it. the trust that there's a serious negotiation and nobody uses force to create facts on the ground that can't be changed. >> okay. let me turn to professor because, you know, if you talk to president clinton like i did, and i pushed him quite hard on this there's no doubt when it was closed doors discussion with putin, he completely trusted him. that putin never reneged on his word, always delivered on what he told bill clinton personally he would do. should president obama be getting in the same room with vladimir putin right now and thrashing out some kind of solution to this bearing in mind bill clinton's words? >> well, i think it's very important that -- that the west, the eu and president obama engage putin.

this is not a time to cut off contact. but it is a different environment fundamentally from any other kind of dealing with putin. one has to understand where he is right now. his policy initiatives have been very rash. you don't do what he does unless you think the stakes are very high and in his view i think he believes the political forces out of this recent political crisis has now led ukraine to a position where russia is losing it to the eu and nato and he believes that's happened in part if not engineered by the u.s. and the eu and others then strongly supported by it and come to have an exceedingly negative view of the administration, of the americans and it will be very hard to do any kind of a deal with him where you get back to the clinton proposition to trust him on a deal. we're in a different world with putin right now. >> okay. but let me ask you this. madeline albright called him delusional. is he completely delusional in reading the country with a country on the doorstep, right

on the border? is he delusional or is he right to be quite paranoid about the situation and in his own way he believes acting in the best entrust of his country? >> i think he thinks it's that, that's the case. he certainly believes that ukraine is utterly critical to russia. its aspirations, not merely to russian security and a broad sense or political identity or self satisfaction but to projects like this economic union, political union he's attempting to form. a whole host of other things. but again, as i've said, i think the real question is whether these rash actions which he's taken given the high stakes are not leading him into some very deep and dangerous water. what fareed said a moment i would read differently. that is, the risk is -- he has said i'm not going to annex crimea. that's not my aspiration. but the next sentence was, i

will respect the freedom of crimean people to make their own decisions. and as fareed pointed out if a referendum is held current law scheduled for march 30th and possibly pushed up likely to be carried in favor of independence. then what's he going to do? my guess is he's going to embrace it and if he does it won't simply be another -- it is likely to lead to russia's decision to incorporate crimea into russia. and then what do the ukrainians do in this situation? >> okay. let me play a clip. this is vladimir putin talking about the potential use of military force. >> translator: if i take the decision to use military force, it will be completely legitimate and correspond to the norms, international law, because we have request of the legitimate president and also correspond to our duties and correspond to our interests in protecting the

people who are close to us, historically. >> general mark kimmet, from a military point of view, put season min taning he hasn't sent troops in in any kind of combat manner and protecting as he puts it people close to us historically. is he right? >> well, what he is doing is protecting the strategic interest which is the warm water part of simferopol. this is not unique for either putin or russia. there's been an outside intervention every decade since the end of the world war ii. i mean, the fact is they went into afghanistan in the '70s. they went in to georgia in the 2000s. hungary in the '50s. czechoslovakia in the '60s. i don't see that this is somehow suey generous to putin alone. the fact is any time the russians or the soviets or for

that matter, they take military action into the countries to restore stability and restore that buffer zone around that country which they have wanted to maintain for years and years. >> yeah. and on that point, is he not right to at least raise a flag and say, okay, america, you may be hostile to what i'm doing but wouldn't you basically do exactly the same thing if you faced exactly the same scenario on your border? general kimmet? >> i deplore what he's done but not go too far on that suggestion. we did the exact same thing in panama in 1989. we had a strategic interest, that of the panama canal. america took swift, decisive action to maintain its strategic interest in the panama canal zone and the american people inside. i don't see much of a difference of what happened there and what

happened here in ukraine. >> okay. fareed zakaria, i can see you shaking your head. why do you dispute a comparison in the way general kim december met outlined? >> all nations have interests and interests outside their borders, great powers have interests. but the fundamental putin is facing we did not at panama is the people of ukraine by and large don't want to be dominated by russia. that's what set the dynamic going and why bob legvald is correct saying this is a nightmare or putin trying to keep up with the pace of events but the real movers, the real actors in this story are not washington and obama who are strict putin or not putin who's done a power play. this is the way we describe it or the heroes of the story are the ukrainian people who took to the streets, overturned a government they thought was a vassell of rush why and trying

to make a modern, liberal, democratic future for them and putin is trying to arrest that course of history. very different from going in temporarily to secure the panama canal or get rid of a, you know, a bad guy like noriega. it's a thriving democracy. look at nicaragua. i hope the lesson is holding on to pieces of land and warm water ports and all, that's not how you make a great nation. the way you make a great nation is raise the standards of the living of your people. putin is presiding in russia that's ruining the lives of the people but he's got crimea. >> i would also argue that to suggest that the people east of the denepra river, primarily russian speaking and russian affiliated somehow see what's happening in kiev as where they want to be going or that somehow russian pass ra trooping in kiev

is a mace statement of fact. the fact is the crimean in general lean far more towards russia than they do right now to the west. >> it's a little bit of an old-fashioned thinking if i quickly point out. even in crimea, only 60% of the population is russian. 15% are muslims. i don't think they're looking at the prospect of russian domination with any great joy. >> no. but 60% of the people are. >> final word to professor legvald an enthis question, really, a crucial one. will putin back down? >> i think he's not going to back down from the position he's currently established. the real question is what's his game? what's he up to? not a bandit that's seized an opportunity in order to grab a piece of another country. at a minimum, i think he's trying to create the strongest possible hand he has to influence the future course of ukraine.

i think he knows that the elections may 25th in ukraine to decide the next government, if they're entirely controlled by the elements from the west which are very pro west ready to destroy the commitment to neutral tell oi ukraine's part established in 2010, if they control the situation, ukraine is lost. he want it is strongest possible hand at a minimum to shape the outcome of ukrainian politics. as a maximum if he's given up that portion of ukraine, then is the game to begin the process of dismembering ukraine so that the part that retains some loyalty toward russia provides a kind of if you will security buffer or safety zone? the real problem is after crimea, even if the worst happens in crimea. there's more down the road. >> okay. professor, thank you very much. fareed zakaria, thank you. general kimmet, thank you. when we come back, john

mccain tells me why he says this president doesn't understand putin. chris murphy tells me why he thinks the gop is playing politics. ♪ nothing says, "you're my #1 copilot," like a milk-bone biscuit. ♪ say it with milk-bone. i've got a big date, but my sinuses are acting up. it's time for advil cold and sinus. [ male announcer ] truth is that won't relieve all your symptoms. new alka seltzer plus-d relieves more symptoms than any other behind the counter liquid gel. oh what a relief it is.

this president does not understand vladimir putin. he does not understand his am bigs. he does not understand that vladimir putin is an old kgb colonel bent on restoration of the soviet of the russian empire. >> fiery john mccain on the senate floor today with strong words of president obama and vladimir putin. joining me now is senator john mccain. welcome to you, senator. what is your view of where the crisis currently is? >> well, i think it's a situation where the crimea is clearly in russian hands and as i predicted that would probably

be the case. the question now is what about eastern ukraine as to how serious the problem will be there with quote spontaneous demonstrations and requirements that vladimir putin protect the russian-speaking people there? i'm not sure. i think it depends on what vladimir putin thinks our response will be. >> i want to play two clips, one is from putin today and followed by another one from president obama. listen to this. >> translator: no sh i'm worried because we are not going to go to war with ukraine but ukraine has the army. i want you to understand clearly. if we do this, it will only be to protect local people. >> i don't think that's fooling anybody. i think everybody recognizes that although russia has legitimate interests in what happens in the neighboring

state, that does not give it the right to use force as a means of exerting influence inside of that state. >> people criticizing president obama here, senator, but what is the exact criticism? what is he really expected to do? no one expects him to take military action presumably so what should he be doing? >> it's not what he's doing now and what he should do now. the obvious is now and what he's done in the past. it's the tell vladimir that i will -- when i'm re-elected i'll be more flexible as he said to medvedev. when he ridiculed mitt romney in 2012 and said the cold war's been over for 20 years. the accommodation and belief that somehow vladimir putin was anything but what he is. and this incredible weakness which has led to the arrogance and movement that vladimir putin's made into the ukraine.

right now, we are faced with a situation where there's no military option. but there are a lot of other things we can do besides just cancel the preparatory meeting of the g-8 and hopefully we'll do those things but it's what he's done in the past. the chickens have come home to roost, piers. >> well, let me play a clip of senator chris murphy responding to republican criticism of the president. >> i've listened to some of my good friends on the republican side try to score political points in connection with the russian move on crimea. trying to paint this somehow as obama's fault. this is a ridiculous contention. putin marched into georgia in 2008. under a republican president. who many of my republican colleagues considered to be strong on foreign policy. and now he's doing it with the democrat in the office. >> it's a good point he's making? >> well, it is for some. i've -- i strongly resisted, i

strongly said that we ought to respond to it an i was ridiculed by the same, frankly, left-wing liberal democrats. the obama-philes. when i said we were all georgians that was a subject of great laughter. the fact is that that was a serious situation. we did take some action but the fact is today that we are now seeing major nation deprived of a significant part of it and unrest there and i warned about it. i warned about it in 2000. i warned about it in 2008. and i continued to warn about it and predict what's happening now. it's not because i'm brilliant. it's because i know vladimir putin. and this president has no idea as to the nature of vladimir putin or he never would have said to medvedev, the puppet, tell vladimir i will be more flexible when i am re-elected. there's a lot of things we can

do. there's still world's greatest nation but we -- we got to know who we're dealing with. the question was asked about the ukrainian army. vladimir putin says take a look at the post-soviet states. there are many uniforms there that are similar. you can go to a store and buy any kind of uniform. question, but were they russian soldiers or not? vladimir putin, those were local self-defense units. >> what about his more general point? i'll play what putin said here about what he believes to be the hypocrisy of the u.s. position. >> translator: when i say, do you think that everything you do is legitimate? they said, say, yes. so i have to remind them about actions of the u.s. in afghanistan, iraq and libya where they were acting without any u.n. sanctions. >> i mean, again, whether you support putin's position or not, doesn't he have a point? >> of course not. he's using moral equivalence

which, by the way, already people on the left, some of the -- again, obama-philes that are saying, look, we went to libya to prevent, in fact, we kept the gadhafi from the gates of benghazi where 100,000 people were going to be slaughtered and libyan independence. the same way we went to afghanistan because that's where the attacks of 9/11 came from. maybe we shouldn't have gone to iraq but the best information we had at the time they had weapons of mass destruction. none of those was an expansion of the united states empire. this is clearly a power grab. this is part of vladimir putin's desire for the near abroad. he said the greatest catastrophe of the 20th century was the break-up of the soviet union. we have a president that totally misread this guy and as "the washington post" that renowned

conservative periodical, he lives in a dream world and now the whole thing has come crashing down and i can assure you that putin paid attention when the president of the united states said he was going to attack syria over chemical weapons because they crossed the red line and didn't. and i tell you that reverberates around the world and you will i predict to you, you will see china get much more aggressive in the south china sea. >> senator mccain, good to talk to you as always. thank you. >> thank you. i want to turn to democrat chris murphy. we heard him on the senate floor today and one of john mccain's on the foreign relations committee. thank you, senator. you didn't get a chance to respond john mccain earlier on the senate floor but you can now. over to you. >> well, listen. this idea that invasion of ukraine is obama's fault is ridiculous. as i said on the floor, this is putin's ambition.

i agree with senator mccain to re-establish the control over the near abroad and pursued that policy under republicans and democrats. invaded georgia under president bush and frankly president bush didn't do too much about it, certainly didn't consider the kind of economic sanctions that president obama is considering today. and this idea that obama is somehow weak in the world, simply because he talks to our adversaries is ridiculous, as well. the fact is we have a lot to work on with russia and so we have talked to them about afghanistan, counterterrorism measures, syria, missile defense. that doesn't make him weak. that doesn't mean that obama doesn't understand who putin is. the fact is that putin's ambitions stand solid regardless of whether there's democrats or republicans in the white house and what this masks is the fact that john and i agree on what we should do from here and instead of spending the time blaming folks for the situation we're in, we should be holding hands trying to get ukraine and get the international community out of this mess. >> one of the in my view more

outlandish claims by some republicans is that obama is weak simply because he didn't go and bomb syria when he had the chance and emboldened putin to take the action he is doing now. i think that's pretty ridiculous. what is your reaction to that? >> i mean, we are still cleaning up the mess of iraq decade and a half later. and so, the notion that the only way that you can portray strength in the world is by invading and bombing other countries is ridiculous. the war in iraq and frankly the mismanagement of the war in afghanistan has cost this country dearly in terms of treasure, reputation an lives. i'm glad that we didn't militarily intervene in sir why and my constituents understanding there's a different power to be exercised around the globe, one that actually comes with economic diplomacy which is what we're going to do to try to move russia back off the precipice of crisis in ukraine, enact crippling sanctions on the russian government and economy and rethink the approach here

and the work that the united states should be doing rather than perceiving strength only to be a function of how many different countries you can invade in a period of time or in an administration. >> people are talking a lot about the word deescalation and saying 24 to 48 hours are crucial. do you think that anything can be achieved significant in that time scale? >> i think there's a good chance that putin is making this up as we go along. i think it's always been his broad mission to try to re-establish control of the former republics but only two weeks ago he had a president there with, president yanukovych under his thumb and when the people threw off that yolk of leadership that he was faced with his only option at this point which was to march troops in so i'm not sure that we're going to see anything in the next 24 to 48 hours to dramatically change the situation. i think it takes the united

states and europe making putin believe that we're serious about bringing down his economy if he doesn't change his mind. right now, the europeans are not where we need them to be. it may take a few days or a week to tell putin get the troops out of there or accept international monitorying or we're going to exact sanctions on your people you will come to regret. >> senator murphy, thank you very much, indeed, for joining me. >> thank you, piers. mother russia, fall of the soviet union, with vladimir putin on the move in ukraine srks the cold war genuinely heating up?

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come on, baby. >> u.s. huge underdogs. >> over. set. it's there. the puck is still loose. 11 seconds. the countdown going on right now. morrow. five seconds left in the game. do you believe in miracles? yes! >> "miracle" and the victory over the soviets at the 1980 olympics. americans never stopped loving to hate the russians. two guests join me. welcome to both of you. bill richardson what is it about the damn rusties that gets the americans worked up all the

time? >> it is the cold war days as crew shef, founding on the u.n. table, it's the cuban missile crisis, but what you're seeing i think right now is after the debacle of the end of the soviet union is putin is saying we're back. we're going to try to restore our strength. we're going to not be humiliated any longer by nato expansion, by countries like ukraine abandoning us, going to the west, by the missile system that was going to be put up in poland which i think now has to be re-established. but i think it's just very much a part of an american culture. the ruskies being the traditional enemy in the cold war period when it's a bipolar world.

it's an interdependent world and so putin will get punishment from europe. he's going to get punishment from nato, from the united states and also i think from his surrounding republics. he's going to lose by this incursion in ukraine, he's going to lose a lot of strength in poland and moldova and countries he wants to keep under his orbit. >> okay. matthew, i mean, i think back in, say, my country, back in england, there isn't quite the level of visceral hatred or distrust to putin and russia and probably the same of many countries in europe, actually. has america got to realign the cold war feelings toward anything russian? is it a pragmatic way to deal with the current situation? >> honestly, piers, i don't think this is about the cold war. i think it's about much more

recent history and indeed geopolitical roles and values today. if you think about the 1990s, for russians, that was a story of suffering. that was a story of being on their knees, of watching as a small handful of individuals enriched themselves in the transition to capitalism really to crony capitalism, to wild west capitalism and their feeling was that americans were doing a victory lap, that we were just indifferent to their suffering, we were expanding nay to all around them and encircling them and taking advantage of them and their feeling today is, look, the democracy such as it is flawed and all is only just two decades old. who are we to lecture them about issues like human rights and whether they're safe in their neighborhood and act against enemies and act against terrorists in the north caucasuses and so forth? it's really not about the cold war and from the american side it's also very much about values. you know?

americans tend to believe look at the march of history. we are moving towards liberal democracy. we are moving towards european integration. countries, former soviet countries and former communist countries are gradually moving into that fold and our belief is so too should the russians. they look like us. they share a great american of european western history. why not them? i think the russians resent that and we're on a path of conflict and very much about recent history and not soviet communism. >> okay. bill richardson, breaking news here from buzzfeed, reporting the former secretary of state hillary clinton addressed ongoing crisis at a fund-raiser here in california today making what two attendees describe as a direct comparison of russia's decision of passports in the crimea region to the population transfers of nazi germany before world war ii. what is your reaction to that? >> well, i don't have all the facts on that. but i think what secretary

clinton is saying is the illegal nature of what the russians have been doing in crimea, basically saying that those troops, those 16,000 troops are not really troops. they're self-defense forces. and that what they're doing in violation of international law just like the nazis were doing. >> i think if i can just clarify, actually, governor, because what she said -- i think this is quite important to make this clear, she talked about how what putin is doing now is similar to what hitler did essentially providing ethnic russians in the crimean region access back to russia and that it was destabilizing. so drawing a direct parallel of hitler's activities in doing similar things before the second world war and what's going on now with putin. >> look. i would tend to agree with

secretary clinton. i don't know if i would phrase it that way. i think what is very, very necessary, despite the fact that it's not been a good week or two weeks for u.s./russian relations or for the west and russia, we need to find ways to lower the temperature, deescalate the tension. we have a lot of common issues that we need to deal with with russians. nuclear weapons in iran. we want their help in north korea to stabilize things there. we need some kind of accommodation in syria. we need not for an escalation beyond crimea to go in to the former soviet republics. but i think at the same time, it's important that this be a signal that nato, the old alliance which is still active and viable, needs to refurbish itself, needs to refurbish itself with missile defense in my judgment.

in poland. and we need to also look at an energy policy that substitutes russia's effort it is try to use natural gas as a weapon to export it to that region. that's -- i think we have the look forward positively diplomatically and economically. >> governor, good to talk to you. matthew, thank you very much, instead. coming up, the blade runner murder trial. the defense takes aim at a tearful neighbor of oscar pistorius. there's this kid. coach calls her a team player. she's kind of special. she makes the whole team better. he's the kind of player that puts the puck, horsehide, bullet. right where it needs to be. coach calls it logistics. he's a great passer.

dependable. a winning team has to have one. somebody you can count on. somebody like my dad. this is my dad. somebody like my mom. my grandfather. i'm very pround of him. her. them. you stand behind what you say. there's a saying around here, around here you don't make excuses. you make commitments. and when you can't live up to them, you own up, and make it right. some people think the kind of accountability that thrives on so many streets in this country has gone missing in the places where it's needed most. but i know you'll still find it when you know where to look. anybody have occasional constipation, diarrhea, gas, bloating? one phillips' colon health probiotic cap each day helps defend against these digestive issues with three types of good bacteria. i should probably take this. live the regular life.

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day three of oscar pistorius's murder trial is about to begin after the defense hammered one of the neighbors on the stand yesterday. how's the case going? what really happened to reva steenkamp? joining me, henry lee from university of new haven and lisa bloom, author of "suspicious nation." welcome to you both. lisa, we're about to start day three of this compelling trial, obviously. from what you've seen so far and what you have heard, how do you think this is all going to play out? >> i think the prosecution's off to a very strong start. there are two women who say that they heard a woman screaming over and over again and then a man screaming and the four shots. that completely undercuts pistorius's defense that he thought there was a burglar and shoots through a locked door at

the burglar and preposterous to begin with. and then screaming, he's in trouble. >> dr. henry lee, a lot of attention being put by the defense on the forensic aspect of all this, in particular, whether oscar pistorius was wearing his prosthetic legs and so on. the angle to fire, the bullets went in and the affect on steenkamp. what are going to be the crucial, crucial facts here? >> the crucial fact going to be first thing is the trajectory. what's the bullet and the direction of the bullet, the ballistic of the flying through the door and how high those bullet hole and where is her wound? and the blood splatter inside of the bathroom in addition, the distance determination, how far the shot was fired. those are extremely crucial.

>> right. lisa bloom, how much will oscar pistorius's fame factor in here? we have seen it in american cases, o.j. simpson case, other cases. he is a huge national hero in south africa, a huge pressure on the judge to deliver the right verdict. how much will the celebrity aspect kick in? >> it's a huge benefit for anyone on trial, certainly in america and oscar pistorius even with a judge in south africa. he is a national hero. people don't want to see him in prison and the cases over 20 years of high profile cases, they have proved beyond a shadow of a doubt with a celebrity in the defendant's chair. not just beyond a reasonable doubt. people are relukt about the to incarcerate someone like oscar pistorius. >> this is a clip of her mother talking about oscar pistorius. >> even though it is -- if he

made a mistake, i mean, enormous, it's an enormous mistake, i've lost the most precious thing in my life, myself and my husband, our daughter, beautiful daughter and we were close, we were very close, i've lost everything that's important to me. and but still, i can forgive. >> i mean, lisa, extraordinarily powerful and very moving that she could find the strength to say that. >> incredible. it really is. grace and the dignity. but the justice system still needs to go forward. right? >> right. >> even if the victim's family members forgives, she has to do that so as not to live a life of bitterness and a huge problem of domestic violence and rape in south africa. reeva steenkamp was speaking out about that in the days before she was shot ironically. that's a core issue in the case that doesn't get the attention. >> very quickly, written this book, powerful book of the trayvon martin case. tell me about it. >> thank you.

i knew something was wrong and had a feeling in the gut there was a lot we weren't seeing in the case. i saw a case going off the rails and did investigation to find out what exactly went on in the jury room, with the witnesses and the lack of preparation. why did prosecution wasn't arguing their best evidence, piers. and that's the results are in my book. i start in the jury room with newer evidence and broader issues of suspicions and fears in america and why i call it "suspicion nation." racial profiling and gun issues. >> it's a powerful book. i commend you on writing it. it's an important book. the important story of the trayvon martin injustice. good to see you, lisa bloom. >> thank you. >> and dr. henry lee. thank you. coming up, emanuel brothers of chicago. only one of them took the polar plunge in lake michigan with jimmy fallon and lived to tell the tale and one will join me next. find out which in a moment. i used to scrub the floor on my knees.

[ daughter ] i've mastered the art of foot cleaning. oh, boy. oh, boy. oh, boy. [ carmel ] that drives me nuts. it gives me anxiety just thinking about how crazy they get. [ doorbell rings ] [ daughter ] oh, wow. [ carmel ] swiffer wetjet. you guys should try this. it's so easy. oh, my. [ gasps ] i just washed this floor. if i didn't see it i wouldn't believe it. [ carmel ] it did my heart good to see you cleaning. [ regina ] yeah, your generation has all the good stuff. [ daughter ] oh, yeah. being carried in your arms... but after a morning spent in the caribbean, playing pirates with you in secret coves, an afternoon swimming with dolphins, finished with a movie watched against the setting sun... she won't exactly be short on memories. princess cruises, come back new. ♪ princess cruises, come back new. allthat's it?go out to dinner. i mean, he picks up the tab every time, which is great... he's using you.

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with discounts like safe driver, multi-car, paperless. you make a mighty fine missus, m'lady. i'm not saying mark's thrifty. let's just say, i saved him $519, and it certainly didn't go toward that ring. am i right? [ laughs ] [ dance music playing ] so visit progressive.com today. i call this one "the robox." chicago mayor rahm emanuel taking the polar plunge with jimmy fallon. temperature 10 degrees. surely that can't be healthy. the mayor's brother, a bioethicist.

welcome to you. are you surprised to see your brother surviving the polar plunge? >> i always knew he was crazy. it seems nuts to me. >> well, i'm with you on that. this book you've done, i love the subheading, "how the affordable care act will improve our system." apart from that, the health system in america is quite good, isn't it? >> yes, i think we have to remember before the affordable care act was implemented, how much we didn't like our health care system. the fact that rates were going up at 39%, insurance companies could issue rescissions. the fact that 50 million people were uninsured. the uneven quality of care. we needed reform. we got pretty good reform, not

perfect but pretty good. so i try to explain how we got it and what it's going to mean for the next decade. >> many doctors i've talked to are actually pretty supportive broadly of the aims of obamacare for want of a better care but they're disgusted in the way it was rolled out and the chronic failure of that rollout system, because it sort of contaminated the brand, didn't it? >> well, look, no one can mince words, it was a very bad october and november for the exchange. but that's not the whole of the affordable care act as i make clear in the book. there are many other parts to it, which are going reasonably well, some better than others. we've had some important slow down in the cost of health care. we've had improvements in the quality of health care, especially nationwide reductions in infections, c-sections before term as well as readmissions to the hospital.

so i think focusing excessively only on the exchanges. nonetheless, the exchanges were badly executed and that has given the brand a slightly bad tint. my hope is over the next year, certainly two years, they really improve dramatically and it becomes a pleasure to shop for insurance giving you choices and all the information you need. i think that would change a lot of people's attitude towards the health care reform bill. >> just briefly, where do you think america will with in 20 years' time if the affordable care act really cements itself and becomes much more popular and gets taken up in big numbers? where will america be in terms of health care in two decades? >> well, two decades is a very long time to predict. so i'm going to be -- >> i understand. >> as al hague would say, i'll caveat this. first, most of us will be

getting our insurance through the exchange. we're going to be selecting our coverage through the exchange. second, we're going to be selecting not just insurance companies but a lot of health systems. so i expect that the cleveland clinic, the mayo clinic, johns hopkins university, my own university penn, will be offering their own insurance products on the exchange. third, i think we're going to see an era of low growth in health care. fourth, i think we're going to see a real concentration on improving the health of people who already have chronic illness. they're the people who use most of the health care in the system. 10% of the people use about 2/3 of all the dollars. and improving their health. giving them a lot more so that they stay out of the hospital, they continue to take their medicines, they eat well, they exercise. that's going to be the key going forward to improving the whole country's health and wellness. and i think that's going to become a mayor focus of attention.

last, we're going to have a very different pool of people caring for us, not just doctors, nurse practitioners, home health aids, telemedicine, being able to talk to your doctor over the phone or a machine in your house. it's going to be radically interesting. >> we have sadly little time. i could talk to you for ages because you're a ridiculously intelligent map ant all this. i've enjoyed the book. i commend people to read it if you want to understand what is going on with american health care. good to talk to you. take care. >> thank you. thank you for having me. >> we'll be right back. but my sinuses are acting up. it's time for advil cold and sinus. [ male announcer ] truth is that won't relieve all your symptoms. new alka seltzer plus-d relieves more symptoms than any other behind the counter liquid gel. oh what a relief it is.

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